DEBT… A situation in which spending is more than revenue. Most American families have debt, most businesses have debt and we all know that the United States has debt. Debt itself is not always bad. After all you have to spend money to make money, right? Out of control debt, debt that has no limit in sight and debt for which there is no plan of action to pay off can be detrimental eventually to all three of the entities mentioned above.
As you most likely have seen within the past month the US has met the debt ceiling allowed by current legislation. This means that no further spending can take place and investors and people owed money by the US run the risk of simply not getting paid. Most sources agree that this would be a serious situation with serious implications. After all, who wants to invest in a credit risk, right?
Seems simple enough but as you will see in the links below Congressional leaders and the President do not all agree on the best solution. The GOP wants cuts to spending in order to eliminate debt, the Democrats feel that continued entitlements are critical to stimulate a sick economy. Clearly compromise needs to happen.
What is your take on this issue?
Should the debt ceiling be raised? What are the implications reaching the debt ceiling and not raising it? Is it responsible to raise the debt limit with no additional changes, such a cut in spending or increase in taxes (revenue)? Should these other measures be seriously considered? To what extent should they be altered?
Consider the positions and role of the key Players in the issue: Speaker of the House Boehner, President Obama, and Secretary of Treasury Timothy Geithner.
Provided below are several links to help understand the debt ceiling issues, explanations of possible solutions as well
FAQ on the debt ceiling: http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/03/news/economy/debt_ceiling_faqs/index.htm?iid=EL
Debt Talks: What they mean
http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/05/news/economy/debt_ceiling_deal/index.htm?iid=EAL
Mega Debt Deal stalls
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/11/dead-mega-debt-deal-lowers-expectations/#ixzz1RntZ4aLY?test=latestnews
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98 comments:
I knew it was only a matter of time before this issue came up for the summer blog... ;)
I want to start off by saying spending in itself is a privilege. A misuse of this privilege, as we have often seen, can yield disastrous consequences.
What we should do in regards to the debt ceiling is certainly the million dollar question (no pun intended--no, I lied--that joke was intended). I think the fact we have reached the debt ceiling is our little red flag warning us saying we are heading down a very dark path that will lead to financial ruin. Raising the debt ceiling seems horribly inappropriate for our country--period. Raising it will only allow the government to spend more and more (irresponsibly, I might add), further damaging the world economy and our place in it. We want recovery, not economic death.
Increasing taxes is not the answer, seeing as the added revenue will only go to more useless spending. Cutting taxes won't help either...what good is extra money if prices and everything else keeps going up due to a faltering economy so much so that we cannot keep up? If additional taxes are necessary, tax those that have been taking from the government for years without putting anything back into the system (illegal immigrants, chronically unemployed, etc.)--not the ones keeping this government afloat. Look at SS for example--the ratio of those who put into the system to those who take from it is 1:33 (I can't remember the source, but I'll find it). Things like that just increase that debt...
We need to stop wasteful spending. Simple. There are too many programs out there that aren't relevant to keeping the government going. Look at this website to see just some of the stupid programs out there:
Imagine you are a 6 yr. old asking for a weekly allowance because you want to save up for a new toy. Let's say your parents are fiscally responsible and conservative--they give you $2.50 per week. Excited that you finally have money to spend, you forget why you wanted the allowance in the first place, and you blow it all on candy. In a panic, you go to your parents asking for more money, throwing a tantrum in the meantime. They refuse, being the responsible parents they are.
This hypothetical scenario is what needs to happen to protect our economy. We need to cut ourselves off, like "your parents" did for "you". Do not increase the debt ceiling...just stop the spending.
It seems so painfully simple, but the politicians are like the 6 yr. old....tantrum-throwing children who only want to indulge in their every whim...
Source: http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2009/10/50-examples-of-government-waste
John Gennaro:
Clearly if the debt ceiling is raised yet again we will be put in the same terrible circumstance when the new set ceiling is reached, except this time we would be in a direr situation than before. So raising the debt ceiling is going nowhere, considering it has been done seventy-four times already, and has only made things worse. When the debt ceiling is reached the “country won’t be able to pay its bills” and that means only certain bills can be paid, leaving the rest cut off. Basically, the country is going to have to reach this point at some time and to keep prolonging it would only keep exponentially growing the severity of the problem. So raising taxes now to eliminate some debt or the United States defaulting some of its obligations will no matter what cause serious repercussions for the economy and stock/bond market. Yet this solution would need to come at a point anyway and to face the problem now instead of the thousand times worse problem later is very logical. To raise the debt ceiling is not good in the first place, and to make no additional changes, such as cut in spending or increase in taxes, as well would just be flat out wrong. Changes need to be made now because the current way of pushing the problem to be solved at a later date clearly isn’t working. These changes need to be effective in helping curve the debt, so cutting spending and raising taxes will have to be exaggerated for this solution to work. Drastic measures need to be taken now for the debt crisis to be solved and I believe that cutting spending or increasing taxes now at a high rate will do more good than raising the debt ceiling has ever done.
Source: http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/03/news/economy/debt_ceiling_faqs/index.htm?iid=EL
First of all, I find it a little misfitting to call the "debt ceiling" a debt ceiling. Its more of a imaginary limit that we can raise whenever we want, which is what we have been doing for a good 50 years.
Second of all, the fuss over this issue means that the tactic of spending our way out of debt (after all, you need to spend money to make money) isn't the best decision for us now. Its time to cut programs originally intended to be privileges (like Bill said, spending is a privilege, not a right) but have now become an entitlement. But I'm going to end that rant before it gets out of hand.
The Debt Ceiling has been raised enough. If we looked at it from a 1962 point of view, we might not even be able to SEE the ceiling.
There really aren't any consequences we would start to feel in the next couple years, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Soon, all the brawn of our economy will only be able to pay off the interest in our debts, like the trap many families have fallen into with loan sharks and banks. And then we're stuck in debt.
Thats IF we keep raising the debt ceiling. It can't be continually raised or we may very well find ourselves in that situation. Now, when you reach the debt ceiling and don't raise it, you cut entitlement programs and funding for foreign issues (Libya, amiright? i think i missed that blog though). We understand that youre old and your body hurts; but this is a recession. You can't be spending 320,000 thousand dollars a year for peace of mind. Crack down on non-taxpayers. For the companies that keep jobs in America, tax them less. Enforce anti immigration laws much more heavily.
It is terribly irresponsible to not make any fiscal changes after raising the debt ceiling. If you don't, why bother even having a debt ceiling?
Taxing the people is a terrible way out of debt.
ON the economic way of thinking, rule number 5: "People benefit when they freely trade." i.e., no taxes, no permits, no regulation. The PEOPLE benefit. And last I remember, isn't the government supposed to [consist] of the people, [stand] by the people, and [work] for the people?
RE: Billy
It's a good idea to get illegal immigrants and the "chronically unemployed" to help at a time like this, but how would you go about doing that? Illegal immigrants, in and of the name, would have to be undocumented. My uncle is actually one of the chronically unemployed, but thats because he is 600 pounds. therefore, he is poor.
one moar thing
Would this be on a federal level, or state?
At first I thought, Why not raise the debt ceiling and avoid the economic damage that would result from defaulting our loans and use the time to work out a plan to fix the accumulating debt? But then seeing as we have done exactly that 74 times already, that seems like a naive thought. Raising the debt ceiling now would just enable more borrowing and spending, and increase our debt that we'd have to dig ourselves out of even more. Anyways there's no point to even having a debt ceiling if we just continue to raise it when we get close to reaching it.
Since our spending outpaces revenue by $118 billion a month, the thing to do would be to find a way to either reduce spending or increase revenue by that amount and enough to prevent a government shutdown. Yet talks about a plan to do this have stalled due to partisan disagreement. While democrats want tax increases and spending cuts, republicans want reforms to control deficit spending and no tax increases. Increasing taxes will only help if the money is put to good use, and it hasn't exactly been used efficiently, why would that start now?
I would say that cutting spending seems to be the answer.It is necessary now to make our government more efficient, and stop the wasteful spending.
Either way, unless Congress can come to a decision and each side can give in a little bit, we will hit the debt ceiling and be forced to default, hurting our bonds. To me, if Democrats and Republicans can compromise, even if they don't get all that they want it would result in better outcomes than what this stalemate is giving us.
obviously the government has a problem with spending more money than it actually has. This is a cumlative effect and it can not be fixed by the snap of the Presidents fingers. IT will take a long time to even make a dent in the national debt. However we have to start somewhere. The President's plan is to cut spending and raise taxes, but economists say that will not get the job done. What i think needs to happen is that Congress needs to raise the debt cieling, but only if there is a solid, long term plan that will reduce the debt. The plan will have to include a combination of not drastic, but significant tax increases. The government screwed up and the citizens are going to have to pay the price and so is the government.Spending has to be controlled and we must focus on spending on neccesities not luxuries.If the citizens have to do this then so does the government.
I think that even though we can reduce the deficit we have to raise the debt cieling for now. It is not a permanent solution but the ceiling has to be raised in order for the government to have a little more time to reduce the debt. If the ceiling is not raised the government will default on its payments and the world markets could fail. i think that the cieling has to be raised as long as the government tightens spending habits. Unfortunately the government will have to also put some of the load on the American citizens shoulders. Again no more spending on luxuriies just necessities or raising the debt ceiling would be pointless.
Source:
http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/03/news/economy/debt_ceiling_faqs/index.htm?iid=EL
RE Scott Suddarth:
Understandably, there are exceptions to what I suggested. It would be hard to track everyone down, I admit it; it would make more sense to just to cut back what we give these individuals. Often we get more than we need, which only fuels the habit of spending beyond our means. If proper documentation cannot be shown, then (cue Soup Nazi voice)--"No benefits for you!"
This is, of course, a naive method, subject to all the issues of today's political and economic environment.
Money, like water, is neither made nor destroyed, but simply changes form and hands. With that said, I think the states would be able to get more for their dime to enforce this. This should be on a state level, as I think it would be the most productive (take AZ on its stance on illegal immigrants for instance).
Re: Bill
Cue Soup Kitchen Nazi, in light of the situation I think a lot of people should get some less instead of some people getting a lot less. But I don't disagree with you, illegal immigrants take out of the economy more than what they give, so without a birth certificate, or 3+ employers to vouch for your citizenship (if it questionable) then yes, soupkitchennazisaysno.
[no spelling suggestions]
Buuuuuuuuuut... money isn't EXACTLY like water. It can be made, which it often is (inflation) and not often destroyed, because well not many would torch their own money.
For the most part, though, I agree with you. In terms of cost and effort, the Local State governments should handle their immigration woes.
RE Scott Suddarth:
I meant money in its abstract form (such as with the debt ceiling).
Sorry I wasn't as clear.
At this moment the national debt has taken over mostly all the political talks. Finding a solution is not easy and right now there is not a well thought out plan that has surfaced. If the debt ceiling is raised it will definately have a lasting effect on our economy, because it would cause even more termoil in trying to keep paying off our debt. Our children's children will still be paying the price for all the overspending and recklessnesss of our government in the recent 40 years. Raising the debt ceiling would not help us in the long run, because we will still be carelessly spending money and it will just continue to rise.
Increase taxes could help if the right people are the ones taxed. (Yet, the Republicans refuse to see taxes raised as a soltion to our debt problem).
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20075413-503544.html
Such as high income earners and other people of the higher range of income. Cutting taxes will not help at all because the cost of products in order to live will only continue to rise, and people will not be able to live a decent life. Which would result in needing more government assistance, adding to the debt.
All in all there isn't a real good solution, but raising the debt ceiling is the worst solution of them all. Taxing is a start but it is not the long term solution.
If our country has to declare bankruptcy, we'll crash into a depression worse than the one we're fighting our way out of right now. That said, I don't think we should increase our debt limit unless we can make enough spending cuts that we won't reach our new proposed ceiling.
The obstacle that keeps us from coming up with an excellent bipartisan solution right now is greed. Our politicians are so concerned with the success of their party and their ideals that they refuse to meet and actually save and help America. If people weren't so concerned with their own personal image and focused on working for the greater good instead of working for themselves, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in right now. America's greateset weakness is how unconcerned its politicians are with its wellfare.
We are so obsessed with the idea of being right that we can't focus on the real issues that face us even if it results in our own destruction. This is the real root of our problems. There is so much judging and hating and down-talking that goes on in politics that politicians have no time to comprimise and change, instead they have to focus all their energy in protecting themselves and re-directing the hate to another person. We as Americans indorse this. We buy in to the hate and anger and blame that the media sells us. Our failure to be humble and humane is the reason we're in the mess we have now. Until we can buck up and defy what society expects us to be and become what society needs us to be, we will never be able to solve our problems.
Connor is correct in that the nature of American politics proves to be it's own downfall. We don't spend enough time researching and fixing the problem. Find out where we are needlessly losing the money plug the hole.
The concept of not allowing a higher debt ceiling seems like the right idea to rein in government spending but as last weeks post
said, the government just doesn't run efficiently.
Imagine the u.s. government is a car with bad breaks and it is driving towards the edge of "the cliff of debt". We, the american people, or really ,our congress who is voting to expand the debt ceiling, is charged with expanding the edge of the cliff so the car of u.s. governemnt can stop safely. We're the one's working our butts off to expand the cliff and we're sick of it so we just stop. Because of the limited room to manuever the car immediately pushes down on the brakes with a weak debt-decreasion plan (because we are split on deciding whether we want to press the brakes and the plan is just ineffective because of limited resources being put into it)... The car plummets off the cliff dragging down all of it's citizens.
Basically, it's important to raise the debt ceiling to allow time to stop, but it's even more important to use our resources to press down on the brakes. Lol, I love metaphors and sorry if u didn't follow.
Connor is correct in that the nature of American politics proves to be it's own downfall. We don't spend enough time researching and fixing the problem. Find out where we are needlessly losing the money plug the hole.
The concept of not allowing a higher debt ceiling seems like the right idea to rein in government spending but as last weeks post
said, the government just doesn't run efficiently.
Imagine the u.s. government is a car with bad breaks and it is driving towards the edge of "the cliff of debt". We, the american people, or really ,our congress who is voting to expand the debt ceiling, is charged with expanding the edge of the cliff so the car of u.s. governemnt can stop safely. We're the one's working our butts off to expand the cliff and we're sick of it so we just stop. Because of the limited room to manuever the car immediately pushes down on the brakes with a weak debt-decreasion plan (because we are split on deciding whether we want to press the brakes and the plan is just ineffective because of limited resources being put into it)... The car plummets off the cliff dragging down all of it's citizens.
Basically, it's important to raise the debt ceiling to allow time to stop, but it's even more important to use our resources to press down on the brakes. Lol, I love metaphors and sorry if u didn't follow.
Rob Dale says:
Raising the debt ceiling without taking precautionary measures to reduce spending is just begging for our debt to be increased and the nation's wallets to be thinned. The revenue will probably need to be increased also, since $118 billion of budget cuts would probably thin the government's programs and employment pretty significantly. What we ought to do is meet somewhere in between. Don't make taxes pay the entire amount, and don't just cut $118 billion bones from the monthly budget. And no matter what happens, they need to figure out a way to stop spending so much money, not just to avoid reaching the next debt ceiling so quickly, but to avoid reaching it at all, and to begin to reduce our national debt so that in time, it will become manageable.
In the meantime, the debt ceiling does need to be raised. Again, this should not happen without legislation to help prevent it from happening again. But since "noone knows for sure" what's going to happen when the electricity company is knocking on the doors of the White House, it's better to be safe now than sorry later when everybody's fumbling around in the dark.
Politicians need to grow up and realize that things are getting serious and that, since they've reached 10 debt ceilings in 10 years, they're obviously doing something wrong.
In other words, it's 2011, not 1998. Stop raising the roof. Anybody? Anybody?
I agree completely with what Bill said. The government just continues to spend, hit the debt ceiling, and then raise it to accommodate for our spending. And considering that the Debt ceiling has been raised 74 times since 1962, I don't think raising it again will much of an effect, if any, on the way the government will continue spending. The way we've been handling this ceiling makes it pretty much pointless. At this point its just a theoretical measure to make the ludicrous spending of congress seem controllable.
To get ourselves out of the enormous hole we've dug ourselves into debt-wise is borderline impossible and would take a tremendous amount of work and time. In the meantime, the next decade or so, the government should cut needless spending from our budget. These cuts need to be in small increments and gradually build up to larger more drastic cuts.
For example if you began lifting weights, (much like the weight of our debt) you would have to start out with lighter weight until you built up the strength to lift heavier and heavier weight. The government needs to mirror this and slowly cut more and more from the budget so as not to drastically change or shock the American people and we have time to adjust.
RE jackbohlman:
I agree with what you said about the adjustment period.
The fact that we have even found ourselves in this situation is ridiculous. I know that America overall is a greedy country, but if the government policies that we have in place and the current decisions that are being made continue, then the condition of our economy and world status will only continue to decline.
As a country we can't afford to raise the debt ceiling any higher. This will definitely have an initially negative impact on the economy, but we must come to terms with the consequences of the mess we have made. It would be extremely irresponsible for us to raise it again, especially since it should not have been raised carelessly numerous times in the past. If the decision is made to continue raising the debt ceiling, even bigger changes will need to be considered.
On the issue of taxes, raising taxes won't really be all that helpful. People already feel like they are being taxed too much and the debate on who to raise taxes for is a whole different debate that always seems to go nowhere and ends on a sour note. People can barely afford to live in this rough patch we have been going through. Raising taxes is only going to discourage people even more from going out and spending money, which will only further damage the flow of currency through the economic system. Cutting taxes is a big risk to take, and I don't believe there are many politicians out there wanting to take that type of risk right now. It may help to stimulate the economy slightly, or it may help a great deal; but if it is to be done, other major changes will have to accompany it.
One of the biggest problems our government has is overspending. We tend to pour large amounts of money into different programs without really considering issues we could face, like the economic crisis we are currently in. The programs that we pour the most money into annually need to be reviewed and big decisions need to be made on what is necessary for us to keep and protect, such as Social Security and Medicare/Medicade, and weed out all of the extra programs that we really could live without.
Our country's inclination to borrow large sums of money from other countries have also played a large hand in putting us into the outrageous amount of debt we are currently in. Continuing to borrow at the rate that we are is only going to make our situation much much worse.
Finding a solution to this problem overall is not a quick fix; it's going to take time. In order for the economy to heal completely, we are going to have to take it one step at a time. We need to break down what programs actually benefit us and what amounts of money we are allowed to spend on each and actually limit ourselves without being allowed to raise and adjust them. It won't be easy be it needs to be done.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2011-06-15-debt-limit-debate_n.htm
RE Scott and Bill:
I completely agree. Spending is a privelage and we have used and abused it continually throughout our history. We need to reel in our impulse to just spend and not go overboard because we now feel entitled to it.
In all honesty, our country wouldn't have to worry about a debt well into 14 figures if we had just stayed in the limits of the constitution. The way I see it, all these programs like social security, healthcare (which we talked about last week), education, occupying other countries with troops (According to this source, we have military personnel in over 150 countries as of 2007. http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5564), are all ways the government has tried to make our lives easier (or play international police) but create a large deficit that is growing daily. My point is, we can't sustain a functional government the way things are going now.
From reading the article about Debt ceilings, the idea of it seems to be one taken lightly by congress. As Jack and others have said previously, the debt ceiling just makes it SEEM controllable and something that can be eventually fixed. However, the debt keeps increasing and Congress just increases the debt ceiling to accommodate the compulsive spending.
House Speaker John Boehner puts the blame on President Obama by saying "the debt limit increase is his problem. It’s time for him to lead and put his plan on the table." He continues in his interview to say President Obama talks good game, but never has enough initiative to "pull the trigger" meaning to provide a solution to the mess he (Obama) has made. Boehner concludes by saying "Washington has a spending problem, not a revenue problem."
Source: http://www.c-span.org/Events/Debt-Reduction-Negotiators-Meet-Again-Today/10737422798-3/
Along with Speaker Boehner's remarks, I believe Obama needs to stop eluding the problem and come out with a REAL solution to this absurd amount of spending he has allowed in Washington. This man, I believe is very underqualified for running a country, let alone fix a debt problem. I'm not saying Obama needs to completely erradicate the debt altogether, but when The President contributes to the debt by an annual deficit of $1.5 trillion, he should feel some sort of responsibility and a sense of urgency to provide a solution.
I have been doing a little digging around and found a budget puzzle that shows our current deficit and ways to fix it. Those of you that had Walker last year should be familiar with this as Mr. Walker introduced it to us. So feel free to play around with it!
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html
RE: molliek
Republicans refuse to see taxes raised as a solution to our debt problem because it isn't the solution. The problem is the careless spending the Democrats have proceeded to follow, and will not take responsibility for their actions.
I don't mean to attack your opinions or sound snobbish, but taxing the wealthy is an idea that seems to always benefit everyone BUT the wealthy. It's like getting 45 cents for every dollar you make. You wouldn't like getting your paycheck of say $500 and your boss taking $275, leaving you with only $225 in your paycheck. That's equal to being paid only half of what you earn. No one likes their money being taken away from them. My father, along with many other wealthy American people, pays over 55% of what they earn to the government. To put that into better perspective, with the amount of money he pays the government, he could buy a 2010 Lamborghini Murcielago Coupe for every month of the year. This hard earned money simply goes to whatever Prez Obama pleases to spend it.
It's funny to me how he complains about the overuse of corporate jets and how it is an un-economically sound way to travel. But weren't those jets and trips paid for out of the profits made by those companies? It's their money, who cares how they spend it? The federal government wants to take the wealthy man's money and use it for their greedy desires. That is why the national debt has gone up and that is why the democratic party wants to raise taxes.
Connor (and subsequently Jacky) I believe is totally correct on his point that politicians need to see to the eyes of the country they represent, and not their own reflections in the mirror. We've raised the debt ceiling 74 times in the last ~50 years for one reason, so we could spend more. While it's true that you have to spend money to make money, you have to actually have a plan to make money, and not just spend it on luxuries.
So what do we do now? Do we cut government jobs? Raise taxes? Borrow more? All of them. We take each viable solution in moderation (Benjamin Franklin told us this was good). Because just fixing one bolt on your brakes, doesn't make them better, just leaves one less point of failure. But then that one repaired point will be subject to additional stress. If you fix all of the bolts (even with mediocre quality bolts) the stress is evened out and the car will stop much longer (until you get better bolts).
To take it out of metaphor (for those who didn't read Jacky's post or didn't understand): raise the debt ceiling one more time, and meet in the partisan-middle on a solution to prevent that ceiling from ever being hit again. We need to stop jumping on the money bed, our heads can only hit the top so many times before we pass out.
I think this entire government shutdown thing was much over dramatized by everybody especially the media, and this does not mean I think that it should not have been made a big deal of.I honestly believe that there was no intention of shutting down all spending of the government by either parties. We needed to raise the ceiling regardless of what we were at. I think the reason this was brought to such attention was to let everybody know that we can not keep borrowing at this rate, which is completely true. To have everybody in our country owe over $45,000 is insane, we owe more per person than Greece; a place that the entire world considers to be doomed. I'm glad the debt was made such a big deal by everybody, it brought attention to our crisis, letting people know we do need to raise taxes as well as cut spending. So in short, yes, it needed to be raised to keep us running but it also needed to be brought to the public's attention.
Oh my, we reached the debt ceiling... again? Not really surprised about that one. First off, we should not raise the debt ceiling, it just gives us more room to increase our debt and gives the government no reason to cut back spending. Its just another excuse to KEEP spending.
What did the article "Debt Ceiling FAQs" say? We've reached the debt ceiling 74 times since 1962?! What? Thats ridiculous. Our counrty definately has some thinking over to do. I doubt anyone expected to get $14 trillion in debt, but we are, and now we need to decide how to get ourselves out of this mess. If the ceiling has to be raised then the Congress and President need to stop arguing and figure it out and if it is raised then we need to try our hardest to not reach it and to reduce spending. I think that our main focus as a country should be paying off that debt, maybe not all of it, because I doubt that would ever happen, but half? A third? We need to get rid of all of this debt that we're carrying around, its weighing us down. We need to step out of the other countries and take care of ourselves. The amount of money we are spending while we are in other countries could really help us, but we keep sending more. Certain cuts have to be made or our debt is going to keep rising and it may get so high that it will be nearly impossible to get it back down to a more managable level. Why should the murderers and thieves get televisions and excellent accomadations when that wasteful spending could be put to something of more use? Get rid of extra spending. Try really hard not to raise the debt ceiling. Focus on our own country and our debt. Don't raise taxes.
RE:Bill
I love your scenario about the six year old. Our government doesn't know how to stop and when enough is enough. It's getting to the point where we as a people need to be the "parents" and not allow any more spending.
Re:Taylor Robinson
I agree with what you are saying about having to take it one step at a time. Obviously our country can't comprehend more than one thing at a time, so its definately going to be awhile until this is completely figured out. We have to get rid of programs that we put money into and recieve nothing in return. Simple actions as this could help us in the long run. I guess our country has to take baby steps towards renewal.
Kevin Kichi
I want to say straight from the start that the debt ceiling should be raised again, but that doesn’t mean that I like it. Between two evils raising the ceiling is much more desirable then allowing for the U.S. to default on their loans. If the U.S. ever defaults on their loans, it will be a major blow to an already weak economy. Secretary of treasury Timothy Geithner had stated that he could do some number juggling and buy lawmakers another 11 weeks before the government hits the ceiling, but that’s all he can do buy time, then what? After all we are a capitalistic society, and capitalistic societies are ruled by loans, and loans are what make up debts, and these debts are what make up the debt ceiling. Now if you remove loans from the equation where will it leave us? It won’t work because no one is in debt and there by not allowing the money to flow through the economy.
I think that what needs to be done is truly down to the basics, increase revenue and lower expenses. I know that nobody likes tax increases but for the Government, to make any form of headway into resolving our debt crisis it first needs the money to pay their debts. On the other hand there are many parts within the government that spends far more than they need. Ear marks for starters, yes they do help a lot in the local economy, but you can’t tell me that there aren’t some projects that can be classified as wasteful spending. In the end I think the Government needs a better oversight on all Government spending to squeeze out every drop of waste. (Don’t get me wrong on the whole Medicare/Medicaid issue, I think its wonderful programs for those who Truly need the help.) If we are in such a dire situation then why don’t we act like we are in a dire situation and spend within our means. In the end the raising of the debt ceiling is in no means a good thing, just a band aid till we can finally figure a way out of the hole we call debt.
Raise the debt ceiling for the 75th time? Definitely not. The reason that our government has gotten this far into debt is because the administration fails to acknowledge how detrimental procrastinating is. 50 years ago, we realized that Social Security wasn’t going to go on forever, and that somewhere along the line, something had to be done about it. No one did anything; they just waited for the next group to come along, and expected them to deal with it. Now, our generation is going to have to suffer the consequences of our family’s generation of mistakes. Awesome.
I mean in reality, the debt ceiling will be raised because, come 11:59 pm on the night before whichever day is chosen to be the decision-maker, our government won’t have an answer (surprise- they never do on time), and will need more time to come up with the simple answer of not spending money. They’ll raise it to $15 trillion, so there’s $0.7 trillion that can be used when “necessary”. There’s no other suitable, or even plausible option that I can come up with for this issue. The last thing this country needs is a chance for more money to be borrowed, and less money to be returned.
The Government in my opinion doesn’t view their debt as big issue. They are over budget 118 BILLION dollars a month. I flinch when I go twenty dollars over budget. The government has become accustomed to being in large, ridiculous amount of debt. I think a better question to ask is what would the government do if they weren’t in debt or even in a manageable debt? It seems fairly obvious to me that the debt ceiling will be raised. The real question is how much? I think the ceiling should be raised minimally and plan should be put in place to reduce the debt so that it becomes manageable. This should be done with a spending plan, involving 118 billion dollar cuts. The middle class nor any other class should have to pay for the governments inability to handle money, taxes shouldn’t be an option. The Government has enough money to protect us and keep the roads in good condition.,
The Government does not have a infinite amount of money although if they continue the way they are going they will have a infinite amount of debt. Maybe the government needs to feel bound by debt and insufficient funds inorder to make real changes. Maybe in the long run not raising the debt ceiling could be beneficial. I agree with the republicans if we raise the debt ceiling at the very least a spending plan should be put in place. No matter what we do the road will be difficult.
Re Maddie
I agree we need to stop helping other countries. Not that i don't want to be generous but quite frankly we just don't have the money to help anywhere else. We need to fix America first before we take on the world.
Re: Kmow23
I completely agree Social security military occupation and other government programs and adding to much to our debt. I think that order to solve the problem some of these programs may have to be removed from the government entirely.This will upset many people and government officials aren't willing to upset a majority of people.They are playing politics with our economy and to truly fix things someone will have to the hard things and stop worry about getting re-elected because if they do a good job in the first place then re-election won't be an issue.
America's in debt, and we can't just keep raising the debt ceiling. We're running away from the heart of the problem: overspending. Cutting programs and balancing the budget is the only way to go, no matter the financial repercussions. Because if we let this problem go on for any longer, it'll just get worse and worse to the point where any option is going to cause financial woes.
Obamacare, although advertised as a way to reform healthcare and cut spending, is actually going to increase the debt long-term. Any expansion in healthcare increases government spending. Biden's group is trying to create a framework for debt reduction, but "group's real red-meat goal is to come up with something -- anything -- that can pave the way for lawmakers to support an increase to the country's debt ceiling"
It's all political positioning, and frankly, I find it ridiculous.
Bringing spending down to a certain level relative to GDP by a given date is an honorable goal, and there's too much bickering going on.
Hopes were "dashed for a mega-deal to cut $4 trillion from the federal budget while raising the nation's debt ceiling"
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/11/dead-mega-debt-deal-lowers-expectations/#ixzz1RxYCnXEc
That four trillion could have helped to pull out of debt! But no, the GOP and the democrats can't come to a decision.
Let's hope they can do something other than raise the debt ceiling before August!
At first I thought it was an incredibly bad idea to raise the debt ceiling and only lead to more debt and a total financial crisis in the long run. After reading some of the articles I sort of changed my mind. There is no question that the government needs to come up with a way to not spend tons of money that they don't have.
I think that the debt ceiling should be raised, but not by a lot. The government needs a shock so they can find a way to change what they are doing to fix the debt, but keeping them from borrowing any money at all as early as August does not give them enough time to stabilize the economy or find a reasonable solution. Just stopping the government from recieving money would definitely harm American citizens. The two main options politicians have both have very negative effects. Raising tax will cause people to have money to spend at businesses, thus harming the workers, causing them to have less money to operate with. I don't know what a perfect solution to the national debt should be, but I think the government needs some time and leeway to find a solution that will cause more good than bad and not lead to a whole economic disaster.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/03/news/economy/debt_ceiling_faqs/index.htm?iid=EL
Re: Kyle
"In all honesty, our country wouldn't have to worry about a debt well into 14 figures if we had just stayed in the limits of the constitution."
Amen. I agree with you 100%, this spending is out of control and wasn't something our Founding Fathers had in mind for our nation.
Re: Bill
I can tell that this is your topic! Very well said. I agree with your statement "debt ceiling is our little red flag warning us saying we are heading down a very dark path that will lead to financial ruin." I mean we've reached the debt ceiling 72 times. 72 red flags! Why hasn't some sort of plan been decided on, oh, I don't know... 72 debt ceilings ago?!
Also: loved your tantrum-throwing children metaphor.
I'm pretty much inclined to agree with all the people who said raising the debt ceiling is a lame excuse for actually solving the debt problem. The way I see it, the whole debt crisis is like being on a diet. Right now, America is all loaded up on sweets and probably weighs, like, two tons. Now, the natural reaction to being way, way, way too big for the average human would be to go on a diet. Thing is, a lot of diets are all talk, no walk, a.k.a., “Well, I really shouldn’t… BUT OH MY GOD, THIS CAKE IS DELICIOUS.” and clearly that gets you nowhere.
So America decides to go on a diet, just what would be expected when you want to lose a few pounds, but nothing seems to be working; America just keeps eating and eating and eating until she’s all fattened up again. That—all of that fat and calories and whatever gained by eating—is the debt, and all the tasty little brownies and sundaes that America just can’t stay away from are healthcare, education reforms, and so on.
And no matter how America tries, tasty treats always supersede her willpower. The debt ceiling is just that last treat, when America is trying so hard to be good, that ruins whatever dieting streak America may currently be on, because everyone knows that once you’ve had that once taste of something entirely too bad for you, you screw yourself over that entire day and you say, “Oh, why not. I ate that caramel earlier—at this point, I’ve been bad, so I might as well make it worth it.”
So basically, after 75 years or so, I’m just going to agree with everyone else when they say raising the debt ceiling is fruitless (food pun not intended, though I totally wish I were witty enough to have actually thought of that as being intended). What America needs to do is stop making excuses to keep spending money and finally cut down by whatever means possible. Make this the last time that the debt ceiling has to be raised, and then get the government to do what it’s supposed to do, and run our country right.
-Kathleen Carroll
You can take a loan from Bank of America to pay off a loan you got from Wells Fargo in order to pay off a bill you received from M&I, and eventually have to take loan after loan from subsequent banks to pay off any other loan, in an infinite sequence ending in death and destruction.... or you can just confront the bill you orginially received from M&I, be responsible, work hard and pay it off. I see a similarity with the government as of now.
By raising the debt ceiling, we are only taking loan after loan from different banks; this money however is not all used to pay off the debt, it is used to continue paying for social programs, defense, projects, and maintenance.
We will be caught in the same web of defense; but there is now Global government that would bail us out, especially without us learning something from the experience.
RE: Everybody
I'd like to note that most people on this blog are more intelligent than the average congressman, and while we have no state or nation-wide reputation to uphold, our thought processes are much clearer. We are also not thinking about trying to represent our districts.
See, if congressman a from region a supports x dollars cut from region a, then like hell he will be re-elected.
This is why sometimes it is hard for the congressmen to do things.
re:kaacarrol
i liked your diet analogy. except its more like,
"this cake is all kinds of awesome. tell you what diet, ill eat only 4 slices and then work out later."
but instead of working out later, you have a 5th slice and go to bed early.
AJ Solomon
I agree with almost all of the people here in the fact that I believe that the government debt ceiling should not be raised another time. The government has time and time again wasted the money that it has been allotted and perpetually thrown the United States into more debt each time. It has been an ongoing trend for hundreds of years but elected officials like to hand off the problem and think that it will be miraculously solved by the next generation with harder circumstances. Some of the dangers that come with reaching this imaginary mark of no further debt and not raising it would be that some services that are run by the government would not be able to continue as their source of funding has been cut off. However, if the debt ceiling continues to be risen every time it is reached this problem would be magnetized every additional time it is increased. Especially, if no further changes are made in the government to combat this every increasing debt such as a cut in government spending of increasing taxes. Even in such economically tight situations such as these everyone must do their part to combat a problem that has been festering in our country’s government for a couple centuries. I am not saying that increasing taxes is the only solution because it is a two way street. Along with increasing the taxes of individuals, major political officials need to make necessary cuts in the way they spend the money. One ongoing problem that should have been shut down years ago is the Wars on Terror in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Already in the 10 years of its existence these wars halfway across the war and taking 1.2 Trillion of America’s dollars that it already doesn’t have. I believe that everyone in one time or another has spoken out against these wars so why are they still being carried out and throwing the country into more debt and increasing the risk for another economic depression? In order to seriously solve the nation’s debt that has been ever growing for centuries the best investment that could be made is in the citizens and cut down on ridiculous spending on services that are not necessary.
http://costofwar.com/en/
Re: Know32
I understand where you are coming from about taxing, but the only reason why I suggested taxing the wealthy is because I see how taxing works from two different ways. My mom's boyfriend is justl ike your dad and pays hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes, but then my mom is a single mom with two kids and she gets government aid. I receive Social Security each month, and that is what keeps us a float each month. So when I suggested taxing the wealthy I just ment to look into it, because I see my mom's boyfriend still having all kinds of money to free willingly spend, and then my family that can barely stay afloat. Also if there were a regulation on where the money was being spent it would make it a little easier to understand, but the Americans have no idea how and where the money is going. I think you may have goten the idea that I am a Democrat, I am not I;m a Republican I was just trying to keep political parties out of my views.
Re:Conner
Wow. Your idea is exactly what has been going through my mind, I just couldn't figure out a way to say it. You are definately correct that the government is just full of a bunch of greedy politicians.
Re: Jackbohlman
I completely agree with you. We didnt get into this enormous debt overnight, and we can't get out of it overnight either. The government needs time to fix the mess they created, They just can't do it without any money. Slowly decreasing the debt and cutting their spending seems to be the safest option. This would also let them see the effects of making some cuts and see where they make further spending cuts and where it will be really harmful. I think that the debt ceiling should be raised one more time just so the government realizes they need a plan of action, but it will still have time to think of a solution that will have few negative effects, and giving them until August probably won't be enough time to think of a great solution.
Re: John
I agree with you that spending should be cut. Why are we spending so much money that we don't even have? If the government doesn't know that that is going to cause problems for themselves then I'm concerned.
I don't completely agree with raising the taxes, but I see why you think it would be a good solution. I just don't think that people who are already struggling to pay their bills should have to be taxed even more, especially for the government's mistakes. They would also probably cut their own spending, which would also hurt the economy. I think the solution shouldn't be to fix the debt as quickly as possible, because that leaves a lot of room for problems in the long run. I do believe that we should start solving the problem now though, because it will get a thousand times worse, like you said, if we just ignore it.
The debt ceiling should be raised to avoid the U.S defaulting on its payments and as a result, losing the belief that the U.S. Treasury bonds are the world's safe-haven investment. Our country needs if anything the belief that we can continue to pay up. This raising of the debt ceiling could also ensure the government can continue to function adequately.
This increase in the debt ceiling however should be used to give the government more time to regulate the debt crisis. Spending cuts and tax increases both have the ability to potential solve the imminent problem. However the use of one or the other puts too much stress either on the government in spending cuts or the citizens with tax increases. The use of both in moderation should take the place of one in excess. The GOP I right that spending cuts would help but so are the Democrats in seeing that our economy is still weak and that huge tax increase would be hard felt and stimulation through entitlements for the economy are still needed, maybe perhaps in a slightly smaller amount. The government needs a serious overhaul in regards to finance management but we have known that for years and not acted until a serious crisis directly affected us.
Now we need to make some short term sacrifices in terms of cooperation and compromise in order to continue to be a top nation.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/13/news/economy/debt_ceiling_moodys/index.htm
Re: Amanda
I totally agree that whatever solution is decided on should include multiple modest methods for saving rather than a single excess method that overly hurts any given party. As I said before in response to Connor, this is a time where partisan politics need to be put aside in favor of the good of the nation. If we can't manage to do that in a time of crisis (and while no one is dying, it is a crisis) then what has our American government accomplished?
That said, if this requires another increase of the debt cap, so be it, but make sure that increasing it again in the future (or surpassing it) isn't required due to more efficient spending. I don't think that we could have remained how the Constitution originally provisioned due to inflation, though I think we can make an effort to stop our nation's spending.
Re: Kevin
Your commentary on this issue leads me to believe you misunderstand how taxation effects the economy. Care to elaborate on how it works?
Re: Amanda/Bermudez
I do not agree with your opinion that we should raise the debt ceiling, because it will just aloow our government to keep spending out money freely. These short term sacrifices you mentioned... What exactly do you mean? If we raise the debt ceiling our kids will be the ones effected by it and then their kids. The cycle will just continue, abd there will never be an end.
No one noticed my harry potter refrence with the "greater good" idea. Some sacrifice to increase the general welfare. Ah well.
I believe that Jacky is correct.
Just to play devils advocate, I would like to say that America has rarely managed to unite unless we are facing a serious threat. So there is no reason to believe that we will manage to work out a compromise that would allow us to raise the debt celing AND curb spending. So, in this vein of thought, I agree with Bill and Scott.
However, that's not much of a solution, just a cold reality.
Thanks for agreeing with me Connor.
Re:Kmow
Check your facts. That car is 300 to 600 thousand.
The people blaming Obama are just part of the problem rather then the solution. You can't say Obama is unqualified to be president because he can't singlehandedly come up with a plan to turn America around.
And did nobody read my metaphor?!?
People! This isn't like going on a diet. It's a complicated process with many pieces. You can't just stop all these government policies. Go do the investigation and research to see what we need to cut. Mr. Boehner is complaining about Obama in his quote but who does he think the president is? God?
How does that saying go again....? Isn't it something like "the 75th times the charm," right? Oh, no? It's the 3rd??? Well then why are we even discussing the proposition of raising the debt ceiling?!?! After raising the debt ceiling an average of over slightly more than once a year since 1962, only to find ourselves once more in the same exact predicament how is there even open-debate? Hey, America! I've got a grand old idea! How about instead of bickering over whether or not we should continue to do the same thing that's worked soooo well for us in the past, we try mixing it up a little bit? If for nothing else than for variety's sake! Yes, NOT raising the debt ceiling may actually require the American populace to live under more strenuous circumstances for a time, but as long as the strain is spread among all (perhaps even including those politicians whom this all weighs upon) and not the few I have confidence in our odds of success. NO WAY... di-did I just suggest that we finally face the realities that exist instead of pushing them off for the 75th time? I sure did. For far too long we have been the country of buy now, pay later. We have a serious case of credit-card syndrome. It's time to make a stand, dig our heels in, and get ready to tough it out. Because, at the rate we are going there may very well be a point at which we no longer have an opportunity to make a decision that will carry any implications. The positive-feedback loop will continue on its own, ultimately resulting in a Great Depression equivalent crash, if not worse whether we change later or not. I don't know about you, but I'd rather take responsibility now than point fingers later.
Now don't get me wrong, completely refusing to do anything is not responsible either. However, a couple steps could and should be taken in stride with leaving the debt ceiling at where it is. First, I would like everyone reading this to READ THIS: In the past year, America spent just as much on its military as China, the United Kingdom, Japan, Russia, Italy, France, Germany, Saudi Arabia, India, and Brazil (or the next 10 most-expensive military programs in the world). What exactly are we planning on doing, take over the world? I've got news for you America, while you've been stocking up on weapons, other countries have been properly educating their youth and sending them to take the places of your youths in the top colleges around the nation. But, that's a different issue. The point I'm trying to make is that before politicians start looking at welfare whenever cuts are mentioned perhaps they might want to start somewhere else. Just saying. Secondly, INTELLIGENT cuts paired with a small universal increase in taxes (perhaps 1-2%) that would increase revenue overall, would be more than capable of reducing the defecit below the current $14.29 trillion mark. I'll leave you guys with that. Sam out.
In "The Order of the Phoenix", harry discovered a prophecy that, on the subject of Harry and Voldemort, "neither can live while the other survives". This holds true with the debt ceiling, in relation to our counrty's well being; the stronger one becomes, the weaker the other gets. But it isn't healthy for either to keep the other alive, so for one to be totally dominant and, well, alive, the other must be dead. Or in this case, gone.
W.A.D.C.
(Wizards against the Debt Ceiling)
The debt ceiling should not be raised. The United States is in its current position not because of a single man's irresponsibility, but the accumulation of trillions of dollars' worth of debt due to many irresponsibly spending presidents (and their colleagues). Reagan and Bush are two of the larger contributors to our position, but nearly all recent presidents have contributed to this.
However, this spending does not make it right to allow our country to slip further and further into debt. The key here is, of course, a "balanced budget." To create a balanced budget is easier said than done, but there are many obvious steps we can take in the right direction.
Like an alcoholic or a drug addict, the United States does not have to have a complete action plan that maps the results of every single action that they take. Of course, one must be formed eventually. But our money-addicted country can't just put down the bottle of debt and take a turn for the better. The bottle, in our case, is involvement in foreign wars. The tab on the military budget in 2010 was 663.7 billion dollars . Compared to our 14 trillion dollar debt, this does not seem like a sizable chunk. But if we were to scale down our foreign involvement (while still maintaining ground troops to protect our homeland in the case of a REAL emergency) by as much as 100 billion dollars (still leaving u with 563.7 billion, which is more than the spending in 2007), we would be 100 billion dollars closer to being out of debt.
RE Scott Suddarth:
With the movie coming out today, I knew we'd eventually get a Harry Potter reference.
It's a good one! It is truly a power struggle (though it can also apply to Democrats and Republicans as well).
RE:Bill
I agree, our government doesn't know when enough is enough. The situation that you set up about the 6 year old was very accurate, also. The government needs to realize that we can’t always rely on our “parents” for everything, so we need to grow up and deal with the messes that we’ve made on our own.
RE: Mark
My issue about raising the tax ceiling is that by raising it, we’re almost allowing the government to not take responsibility for their actions. Besides, even if there is a solid plan, the bottom line is that is this is the 74th time that the tax ceiling has been raised, and they need to realize that we don’t have an unlimited supply of money. A long term plan to reduce debt is a good idea, and a necessary one, too; I think we need to not raise the ceiling, and come to a reasonable conclusion, and plan of action, by only cutting what isn’t necessary in our budget.
RE Cassie:
Everyone keeps bringing up the point that the debt ceiling has been raised 74 times. How will a 75th time be any worse than the previous 74 times we've raised it? the government obviously has to decrease spending, but they need more time to reduce the debt. this means they have to raise the debt ceiling, but my point is, that to raise it the government must also have a written plan in place to considerably reduce our debt. If we do not raise our debt ceiling, very detrimental things will occur to our country and others.
Re: SamRabichow
I agree that the government needs to look into cutting spending when its come to military spending. However, i do not think it is wise to not raise the debt ceiling and to as you suggest. Not raising the debt ceiling would cause America to default on our payments and cause the world banks to go into a whirlwind of turmoil. I think that if the debt cieling is raised America will still have to suffer, just not as greatly. I actually agree with you that America has to face facts and stop spending so much but defaulting on payments is not the way to go. Raising the debt ceiling will give Congress more time to come up with a legitiment plan, as Allie suggested. We will still have to "dig our heels in, and get ready to tough it out." Once the ceiling is raised, we will immediately need to start paying more taxes if we want this problenm to go away. My main point is that raising the debt ceiling will not give us an excuse to put off paying our debt, just guve us more time and oppurtunity to do so.
Bill, are you suggesting that either democrats or republicans must die? Because that is a concept that I believe only a death eater would formulate without a prophecy. which you might have. I say this because there have been two times in this blog alone where you have "known" something will happen.. suspicious.. Are you perhaps psychic? if so, do you have any prophesies concerning how Dumbledore might use his influence over people who are "kind-of-dead" to promote communism throughout north america?
I agree with Mark. Can somebody read my metaphor haha? Because that's what it says. The people who are against raising the roof are asking for a depression to shock the government from needless spending. Maybe that's what we need but if it can be successfully avoided, it should be attempted.
Btw, good point Connor.
Thanks Jacky. I agree with your last post.
Re: Connor
I did recognize your HP reference!!!!
But, about what you said about politicians being unconcerned with the nation's welfare, I agree with you that politicians may not be the best people in the world. However, I disagree that they aren't focused on the welfare of the people and more concerned with their party's success. After all, last week we talked about healthcare and isn't that debate all about improving the welfare of those who can't afford health insurance? I think that these politicians are concerned for the people's welfare, but it seems to be limited to the welfare of who they represent as a party. If everyone can sacrifice a little, in regards to their ideals and who they represent, then we will definitely benefit.
Re: Mark
Alright so you and Jacky basically convinced me haha. I get that if we don't raise the debt ceiling, the economy for sure is going to default and face a lot of trouble.. But at the same time, raising the debt ceiling is like an invitation to Congress to continue to borrow and spend. If we can curb spending and start paying off the debt, then great! But if we can't? Then it's just an endless cycle and we're just digging ourselves deeper into a problem that will get harder and harder to fix. So if we want to save ourselves now, and give us another chance to fix the deficit, then we have to pull through and really fix this before it gets worse.
RE Connor:
Sorry! No that's not what I meant at all....I meant in terms of political parties. Nothing can get accomplished while there are two separate parties (the country's well-being cannot survive while political parties survive). I meant it in the general term applying to the metaphor, not for a particular group to die. You thought in the literal sense of a metaphor. Bad, Connor! :)
Am I psychic? No, I'm not, but I see problems unfold before they actually happen and can often see where a line of events are going. I'm a big cause-effect person. In terms of business and its effect on the economy, my grandfather had (he's retired) a multi-million $ business, so he knows what to expect. He's told me spending stories (what went well, what didn't) and what NOT to do in business. I've listened to what he's had to say. Business can easily apply to the government and this debt ceiling matter. I also use my experience gained in certain matters to formulate a prediction of what will happen next. I do nothing more or less than a weatherman does...I just tend to be a little lucky more often. Though I appreciate the compliment.
Were you being sarcastic in calling me a death eater? I'm taking it as that unless you tell me otherwise, if I understood your post correctly. I can't come up with anything concerning Dumbledore and ficticous events in terms of prophecy...I can only guess at what will be, but "my guesses are generally good" (Dumbledore quote).
(in mysical voice) I predict you will finish this post now...
RE Connor:
In a way, I was agreeing with your statement about greed being an obstacle to progress. Political parties only want to improve their own party and very little else. That's why political parties have no place today...hence my not-so-clear statement about Democrats and Republicans.
Re: Mark Webb
I agree with you on the fact that people need to take the number of times the ceiling has been raised with a bit of salt. 74 is a big number, so is 64, and 54, was there this much controversy about those times? The issue hasn't arisen because we've raised it 74 times in the past, that's a side fact. Remember this line?
"They don't admit it, but lawmakers tacitly agree to raise the debt ceiling every time they vote for a spending hike or tax cut."
So the debt ceiling has been raised numerous times without the American people even realizing it. When a bad thing happens once, twice or even three times, it's considered bad and the effects are magnified immensely. When a bad thing happens 74 times, no one really notices much anymore, but we don't want that bad thing to keep happening because it's bad. So we let it happen again since we really weren't paying attention the last 74 times anyway, and we find a way to prevent the 76th.
Re: Jacky
I did read your metaphor, and felt it described the issue quite well, I actually expanded on it a bit. And like I said in my response to Mark, I agree with your statement that we have to raise the ceiling one more time or risk throwing the nation into a depression. While that would shock us into repairing our debt issues, repercussions would be widespread and global.
RE: Mark
John Gennaro
I see your point in believing that raising the debt ceiling just to help plan out a future solution, but don’t you think this was the intention every time the ceiling was raised? Just like every other time this issue will be pushed aside for more “pressing matters”, and left for the next generation. So to continue on this path of exponentially increasing the problem for a good reason is to trust that Congress will try and fix it after the ceiling is raised. As history shows this good reason has mostly been an excuse to raise the ceiling and not worry about it, so once again I think raising the debt ceiling would actually make the problem worse.
RE: Sam
John Gennaro
I completely agree with you on keeping the debt ceiling from being raised any longer and attempting what hasn’t worked so many times before. It is better to face the issue now. This problem will only continue to grow as long as the debt ceiling is allowed to be raised. So maybe military cuts will help put a dent in the debt if all else can’t. The point is that actions need to be taken without raising the debt ceiling and I believe this will only help solve this ongoing problem.
Mark: I apologize if i led you to believe that I was suggesting we default on our debts for I most certainly was not. Defaulting would only be necessary if we did not raise the debt ceiling and then EXCEEDED it. Hence my contigency plan regarding a miniscule tax hike and cuts to over-funded areas of the government.
Everyone Else (Including Mark): I thought I might do a litte basic arithmetic to help bring light to the issue.
THE FACTS:
United States Population=311,764,954
GNI(gross national income) per capita average= $47,140
Annual Military Budget=$692,000,000,000
Current Annual Overshoot (if Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner's 118 billion/month is correct)= $1.41 trillion
THE MATH:
Cutting The Military Budget(still leaving our budget twice above China's, whose is second to ours)=$492,000,000,000 saved
Enforcing a 3% income tax hike= $441,000,000,000 saved
Putting a Clamp on Wasteful Government Spending= $127,000,000,000
Cutting $1.06 Trillion Out of the Annual Overshoot= PRICELESS
P.S. I know that still leaves about $.4 trillion left for the government to figure out on its own. I wouldn't want to do all their thinking for them.
That was my post lol, not sure why it says unknown^^^
Re SamRabichow:
Is that $.4 trillion or $4 trillion?
You might have posted your comment under an open ID, which would account for the "Unknown" posting.
Just a thought...
Re: Amanda/Bermudez
I'm going to have to disagree when you say that what America needs is for its citizens to believe in it. Sure, we all want to have complete faith that everything will be okay and that the government will sort it all out, but that's just being contented with a lie, which is a fool's way to live. We can't sit around expecting things to get better when, looking at history, things did not get better. Raising the debt ceiling is not a long-term solution but a short-term "Well, I guess this works for now" that makes America think everything is all right again, and there's nothing to worry about.
The government can't keep pushing their fiscal issues to the wayside, waiting around until something happens to shock them into action; someone needs to address that there is a problem and actually do something about it before we need to resort to futile solutions again.
Re: SamRabichow
The thing is, if cutting spending were all that simple, I think the government would have done it already, or at least I hope they would have. I mean, you did say it was just 'basic arithmetic'; I doubt if it's simple as "Let's get rid of this, this, and this, and BOOM the economy is fixed." Now, I'm not going to pretend to know much about the background of all those numbers you just laid down, but there's got to be reasons why we're spending all that. I mean, it's not like Congress is just popping onto the political Amazon and adding a load of useless programs to their online shopping cart.
RE: Scott
Great analogy, I totally understand and agree with your relation of that quote to our situation. Rock on.
"OH HEY GUYS WE'RE IN SUPER BAD DEBT SO LETS MAKE OURSELVES IN MORE DEBT TO GET OUT OF IT." good plan.
Re Bill:
That would be a $.4 trillion or 400 billion dollars lol and yeah i figured that one out haha thanks.
Re Kathlene:
The only suggestion I made regarding funding cuts was one to reduce the ridiculous budget that is allocated to our fighting forces each year. With that being said, the reason that it is so out of proportion in regards to the rest of the budget could have something to do with the fact that we insist on continuing to act as Globo-Cop on the hunt against "evil." AKA the extremely dragged out war/occupation we have kept ourselves involved in for no real reason in the Middle East.
Rob Dale says:
Come on guys! Nobody liked my 'raise the roof'?! I even Googled when that song came out!
Re: Jack Bohlman
I agree with your analogy comparing the spending adjustments to lifting weights. The average American family doesn't have the money they did ten or fifteen years ago, and too much stress too suddenly could cause huge disruptions in the economy coming from families that were kind of stressed but making then suddenly couldn't. The government needs to recognize it stands on precarious economic ground and tread lightly so the American people will continue to be willing and able to support it.
Rob Dale says:
Re: Sam Rabichow
I agree that there need to be cuts. I think that the budget allocated to the military is steep. You raised a great point, and backed it up with your math and logic, about cutting the defense budget. I think that's a great idea, except for with how much money is going into that, it has to be supporting a whole lot of jobs and families. Sure, there is a lot of research and production costs and whatnot, but surely the folks who are serving are payed out of those billions of dollars. If this is the case, such a drastic cut would leave many suddenly unemployed. And perhaps the retirement, medical, and dental benefits come out of that budget too? I'm saying trim the fat off of the defense budget, but spread the cuts across numerous programs to cause the least damage to each one, and hopefully leave as many as possible employed.
Re: John
In response to you're question, yes i do believe the debt ceiling hs been raised to push off problems or allow more government spending. I think this time is different though. In ryan's response to me he mentioned that the debt ceiling has been raised numerous times without anyone taking notice or caring. Well now American citizens care, and i dont think that we will let congress continue this trend, but they still need more time to dig themselves out of the hole that they've diggen themselves into 74 times previous.
RE:Bill
I am sad to say that I disagree with Bills point of view on the debt ceiling. I believe that the answer to our finical crisis is the exact thing Bill says will not help this country. Increasing taxes while at the same time lowering wasteful spending within the government, this will be tough but overall it the fastest and most effective way to getting us out of trouble. I think that we should have faith in our government because of the reason that this country is so young yet so powerful; it is self-correcting, finding the problems within the government and fights to remove it before any further damage is caused. I do agree on the part about enforcing taxing on those that avoid paying taxes such as the chronically unemployed, another area of wasteful money management. The part of illegals, even if they bring their own kind of problems that isn’t related to the debt ceiling. They contribute to taxes without collecting on benefits as well as they are consumers, a job creating factor. I feel that saying our government is a 6 yr. old child is going beyond what it truly is; it may have its down falls but not deserving a total distrust for the government that runs the country you live in.
(also Bill your wording on the social security ratio was off, its 33:1 using your wording of” those who put into the system to those who take from it is”) This ratio was is from the late 40’s back when Roosevelt signed the Social Security Act as part of the New Deal.
RE:Scott
I agree with Scott on the parts of going after tax evaders as well as tax less on companies that keep jobs in the homeland, all strong points that will help this country with its debt problems. What I feel is that those points will fit better with the plans of raising taxes and lowering wasteful spending far better than doing neither. Yet, for these things to take effect we need the breathing room to allow it to flourish, the raising of the debt ceiling allows for the time needed to see changes. I understand that raising the ceiling seems pointless if left alone, but adding in the increase of revenue and reducing unneeded expenses it gives for more structured and fool proof plan. Lastly I want to stat that foreign issues such as Libya are not a waste of money from my point of view. Because the way we are handling Libya is through drones, not foot soldiers but drones. This allows sending a clear message to those that mean us ill will without risking the lives as well as the expenses of war. These messages is more of a front with the less amount of cost, to show our enemies that we will not stand for what they may do to us. Through this method we save more money with just running a few drones that do not need food, shelter, and other things a human needs to survive.
Re: Mark
You said that because this was brought to our attention we won't let it happen again, but the thing is we did. News seems to come in waves is a way I like to think of it. When the debt cealing is being made a huge deal of then its all over the news and people palk about it, but a month or so later people seem to forget very easily, the same happens with natural disasters. When they stop being talked about on the news they seem to "disappear". I think that people have forgotten about our debt and are only angered about what is coming out of their paychecks.
Re: John
I don't think that denying the debt ceiling right now would be the best thing for us to do. We need the money in this moment right now, but that does not at all mean I agree with continuing thins trend. This time we need to raise it to give us the money we need to run. But my main point is that we use the money to maintain us while we drastically cut back on spending. Military cutbacks are a great idea I agree with, honestly I believe in isolationism, but that is a completely different argument.
Re:Allie
I totally agree with you saying we should only use raising the debt ceiling for time and not as a solution for the problem like we have been. When I first was reading stuff about the debt ceiling I thought it was a bad idea to raise it but I eventual came to the conclusion that sometimes we have to do something that may seem wrong but actually helps us in the long term, like when your car skids and they tell you not to slam on the brakes and instead to turn into the skid which sounds like a terrible idea but it works. Its the only metaphor I could think of right now to explain this so I hope it worked.
Re: molliek
Sorry if I was vague I simply meant that maybe we needed to be willing to see some government benefits go away and see through higher taxes for a short period of time. If they did raise the debt ceiling hopefully it would only be to give us a deadline slightly further off.Which would mean we would have to make up for that time hen we figured out a plan maybe by giving up some stuff that normally we would be all upset about having to get rid of, like park clean programs or something. I know people say we have done this debt ceiling rise before but the fact is the eyes of the nation are boring into the government right now and its an upcoming election year so both parties are all trying to show off their skills in the crisis and I just meant that this time the deadline will work because the political, economic and social climate is different than the other times they raised it.
By the way this Amanda Bermudez and I do not know why my name is unknown know but its okay I guess :)
Re: Kevin
I was just asking how you thought the taxing system worked, not to repeat your opinion on the issue. And I would have to disagree with you on it buying us time, because while it seems like it would, Rep.s choose to bicker over other things. Besides, why wasn't this an issue 6 months ago before we are in this kind of trouble?
And cutting programs are not as easy as it seems. Look at PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Spain.)
As for foreign issues, I respect your opinion, but in my opinion they're a waste. Even using 'drones' and missiles, its a waste of money. Yes, we aren't losing very many Americans there, if any, but the Libya's conflict is just that- Libya's. We still dump money over there, where I would wager, in 10 years they're government will hate America.
Re: Mitch Fehr
Thanks, it made sense to me as well.
RE: Kevin Kichi
I agree with your outlook on the debt-ceiling problem that even though it doesn’t seem like the best solution the debt solution needs to be in fact raised another time. You are correct in how the economy works in that we are economy is fueled by loans, which in turn creates debt and into the debt ceiling. Other influential figures such as Timothy Geithner need to come up with a strategy that now just buys our country time but forever solves this problem so we can turn the country’s financial situation around and perhaps become debt free at some point in the future. I do believe that America needs to bite the bullet and increase some taxes to do their part in solving this borderline crisis. I also believe that the government needs to do their part in helping us out by dramatically reducing their spending such as subjects that I have previously stated such as the wars in the Middle East. With a fair combination on both of these ends the debt ceiling will be almost unneeded and America could one day continue on to being a debt free country.
AJ Solomon
RE: Mitch Fehr
I disagree with your theory that the debt ceiling should not be raised at all. You even said it yourself that America’s money spending addiction is very similar to that of a drug addict or even an alcoholic. These people can’t similar just go cold turkey on their addiction but instead need to be weaned off of their poison, and in our case it is money spending. In my opinion you have two conflicting viewpoints in your argument. However, I do agree that America needs to stop their involvement in foreign wars sooner rather than later. All the troops are not going to be able to evacuated all at once but instead rotated out at smooth pace. The United States can not just go to AA to go discuss these problems but with the education of the masses more intellect individuals can rise to office and make more informed decisions on how to attack the debt problem with limited damage on all of its citizens.
AJ Solomon
I feel like this conversation is going no-where. We have the "no-raise" people who believe that the shock of a global depression might be what we actually need to change our ways. We also have the "raise the ceiling, but significantly curb spending" people. I'm part of the latter group. However, as Kaacaroll points out, I highly doubt that an untrained highschool kid would be able to see all the factors that go into foreign affairs and the national and global economy when even highly educated professionals argue about the right way to go about fixing the budget. So I can't say I'm right. But for the group who argues to keep the ceiling where it is, forget the consequences, can't you at least look for a solution to a problem instead of a punishment for our previous actions? I can't tell you how to curb spending, but I firmly believe that 435 educated people (the number in the house of reps.) working together can find a solution that increases our welfare, decreases spending, and avoids a depression.
The problem with my logical solution is that neither our politicians nor we typically act logically.
Since we're not getting anywhere anyways, I'll just express how I see the subject.
Exhibit A:
We don't raise the debt ceiling. America is forced to reform but hits the ceiling because government is slow. The world plunges into a depression. America suffers greatly (possibly to extents that we cannot imagine or to points that we cannot recover from, idk). Ideally after a "great depression" we would recover although judging from the past it will require massive amounts of spending.
Exhibit B:
We raise the ceiling. We get serious and fix the problem before we reach the ceiling (bankruptcy). We pay higher taxes and get less benefits.
Exhibit C:
We raise the ceiling. We keep arguing amongst ourselves and don't get anywhere. After a series of continued raises, the world pulls the plug on America and rips us apart. (haha, don't really know what'll happen but it would probably be the worst of the 3)
RE: AJ
I can see where you're coming from, the debt of our country will take a LOT of time to finally pay off. I was just suggesting a scale down of operations in countries thousands of miles away that we previously had no negative relations with (Libya). I'm not suggesting a complete removal of troops, just a severe cut to the armed forces. I don't think it is such a radical idea, since the same radical cuts are being made in more important departments within the United States, such as education.
Perhaps some of this has alredy been mentioned but here is my take.
In just the past ten years the debt ceiling has been raised ten times. Now, as the debt ceiling has risen, so too has the debt, growing from approximately $5.8 trillion in 2001 under the Bush administration to a walloping $14.294 trillion (the present debt ceiling)in 2011. From that it is obvious that raising the debt ceiling also raises our nations debt and is not a valid solution for climbing out of this massive grave we've dug ourselves. Raising the ceiling is rather a grant for the government to continue spending which then forces the American people to try make up the debt through high taxes.
We have fallen into this pit of economic suspension and deep debt, perhaps by overspending money we did not have. And as seen over the past half of the century, raising the debt ceiling is not a valid solution. Raising the debt ceiling points to a scenario in which we are trying to swim up stream and the current just keeps on bringing us farther and farther down. We need to find a different approach to climbing out of this seemingly everlasting pit of debt.
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm
http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/03/news/economy/debt_ceiling_faqs/index.htm?iid=EL
Re: Jacky Chen
Nobody WANTS to cut programs, Jacky. Nobody wants their programs cut. The only way reform will happen is if America is held at economic gunpoint to reform their ways, otherwise the debt ceiling will only delay the inevitable. Yes, we will be screwed for a while if we don't raise the debt ceiling, but the longer we put it off the worse its going to get.
Re: Scott
There's a difference between holding the country at gunpoint and pulling the trigger. Countries needs money to function so it'll be a disaster if we hit the current ceiling. We need to hold the legislation "at gunpoint" by forcing decisions/changes to be made so we can begin to repay our debt. If we don't buy them time to make those changes and they fail to complete them in time, our government will stop running, parts of it will probably collapse. I'm just saying that if we give them time and they grow up, we can get out of this in one piece.
What you are describing is example C btw, which I agreed was the wrong choice.
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